(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:2]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[3600]OT[5x45 byo-yomi]
PW[backpast]PB[roln111]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2006-01-21]PC[The Kiseido Go Server (KGS) at [
kgs.kiseido.com]]RE[B+14.50]
;B[qd]CR[qd]BL[3818.122]C[backpast [9d?\]: удачи!
]
;W[dp]CR[dp]WL[3814.73]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: началось
roln111 [9d\]: тебе тоже
]
;B[dc]CR[dc]BL[3797.385]
;W[pp]CR[pp]WL[3811.137]
;B[cn]CR[cn]BL[3794.781]
;W[cl]CR[cl]WL[3808.483]
;B[ce]CR[ce]BL[3789.809]
;W[dn]CR[dn]WL[3777.853]
;B[kd]CR[kd]BL[3781.182]
;W[pg]CR[pg]WL[3768.296]C[Yrr [16k\]: is roln a pro too?
PAG2 [-\]: not yet
KoGeima [1d?\]: no
Oleg2711 [5k\]: just child, :-)
KoGeima [1d?\]: 6d
PAG2 [-\]: he is around 15 now?
KoGeima [1d?\]: yep
Yrr [16k\]: wow
]
;B[pe]CR[pe]BL[3676.602]C[DrKyu [5k\]: weird moves
Dootar [-\]: ill say....
Area53 [11k\]: Go roln ! Give backy a beating.
Javaness [5k\]: Q15 leaves some aji
]
;W[pj]CR[pj]WL[3735.755]C[PAG2 [-\]: is that the final of the tournament?
DrGoPlayer [-\]: b has more cash so far
tarragone [9k?\]: last time backpast crushed him
]
;B[nq]CR[nq]BL[3571.907]C[Dootar [-\]: must be a pincer....
Dootar [-\]: but with backpast's playing style... maybe not ^^
DrKyu [5k\]: white seems to be lookgin for central territory
PAG2 [-\]: o5?
DrKyu [5k\]: o5 isnt much severe, no?
]
;W[lq]CR[lq]WL[3625.63]C[Dootar [-\]: kinda close....
PAG2 [-\]: maybe not .. but i like o5 still for the potential it gives on the side..
DrKyu [5k\]: what is black gonna do after O5?
]
;B[pn]CR[pn]BL[3512.943]C[DrKyu [5k\]: oh
Dootar [-\]: o4 now.....?
Dootar [-\]: but then there's the right....
backpast [9d?\]: сорри
SILD [7k\]: @.@
Javaness [5k\]: *gasps*
cvbcvb: hahahahah
backpast [9d?\]: спасибо
DrKyu [5k\]: lol
SILD [7k\]: lol
juve [16k?\]: haha
cvbcvb: thats backpast style for u
Dootar [-\]: and... that means....?
PAG2 [-\]: anybody could help translate his comment?
robertm [4d?\]: means misclick
Gresil [17k\]: the first was "sorry"
cvbcvb: "I am homosexual."
DrKyu [5k\]: maybe he was pointing were he was thinking
ArCosH [5k\]: coppn=oops
Dootar [-\]: his style is very solid
KoGeima [1d?\]: уберите этого придурошного гостя
Javaness [5k\]: O4 the correct joseki or P6?
Dootar [-\]: peaceful even
cvbcvb: undo shouldnt be allowed in tournament
Dootar [-\]: p6 looks good too
DrGoPlayer [-\]: that move really was surprise!
primacy [1d\]: is this a tournament?
KoGeima [1d?\]: yes
DrKyu [5k\]: which one?
]
(;W[pk]CR[pk]WL[3588.201]C[cvbcvb: wtf
DrKyu [5k\]: wow...
])
(;W[oq]CR[oq]WL[3531.26]C[PAG2 [-\]: is that the final?
Dootar [-\]: well played b
KoGeima [1d?\]: noy yet
Dootar [-\]: what did B say?
Javaness [5k\]: P3 .... what is the idea there?
DrKyu [5k\]: realy weird
]
;B[np]CR[np]BL[3482.394]
;W[oo]CR[oo]WL[3526.867]C[Dsch [5k\]: to induce O47P55
Javaness [5k\]: ah this one
cvbcvb: p3 is good
cvbcvb: q6 is no good
KoGeima [1d?\]: Q6 normal
DrKyu [5k\]: q6 is not good, are you a 9d? :S
cvbcvb: must r3 now
damekichi [2d\]: Q6 seems to be some kind of an overplay when white has an extension on the left side
PAG2 [-\]: cvb why that?
]
;B[lp]CR[lp]BL[3446.181]C[Dsch [5k\]: O4/P5
DrKyu [5k\]: you could say, "i think"
cvbcvb: long explanation, too lazy right now
Dootar [-\]: l3...?
PAG2 [-\]: it's easy to say "this 9D's move is not good" .. but it's another to get credibility for it ^___^
StefanK [5d\]: q6 is no overplay
Area53 [11k\]: Because cvbcvb wants admin treatment, look up his comment on the translation of what backpast said.
primacy [1d\]: and w is pro
KoGeima [1d?\]: so what?
StefanK [5d\]: but o4 is a very tough
damekichi [2d\]: heavy you mean ?
Illo [8k\]: vic1000 said rolln111 has the strenth of an korean insei
StefanK [5d\]: b hat r4, r3, r5, s3, r8 instead
]
;W[kq]CR[kq]WL[3414.04]C[cvbcvb: 10th class, did he say?
]
;B[qq]CR[qq]BL[3437.244]C[StefanK [5d\]: and i didnt say o4 was bad :-)
Illo [8k\]: dont know anymore
Javaness [5k\]: cvbcvb who are you anyway?
]
;W[qp]CR[qp]WL[3373.078]
;B[or]CR[or]BL[3435.534]C[Dootar [-\]: q6 looking better and better....
]
;W[pq]CR[pq]WL[3370.325]
;B[pr]CR[pr]BL[3434.404]C[primacy [1d\]: lets concentrate on game before a troll emerges :)
]
;W[qr]CR[qr]WL[3367.956]
;B[nn]CR[nn]BL[3432.535]C[cvbcvb: a player waiting for a tournament occurring today
cvbcvb: very poorly organized, no one knows what is going on
PAG2 [-\]: cvb .. you might be right, but don't forget that credibility is something to be won ^__^
damekichi [2d\]: result seems so bad for white...
StefanK [5d\]: no
]
;W[rq]CR[rq]WL[3287.369]C[damekichi [2d\]: isn t the corner too small ?
StefanK [5d\]: not bad for w
Dootar [-\]: I think the corner is kinda small...
asa31 [8k?\]: not so close
StefanK [5d\]: b has some trouble taking care of his cuts now
]
;B[on]CR[on]BL[3372.115]C[Dootar [-\]: true....
StefanK [5d\]: but notice s3
damekichi [2d\]: looks like a tenuki on a double approach
TotoroShan [15k\]: what was the problem with S3 ?
StefanK [5d\]: o6 was a good move because damezumari was threatening for b
damekichi [2d\]: that s true
Gresil [17k\]: s3 simply honte, nothing wrong with that, right?
damekichi [2d\]: but what if white didn t answer and took O2 instead ?
aldero [20k\]: how can be done damezumari here?
damekichi [2d\]: didn t answer L3 i mean
aldero [20k\]: stefank...
Dootar [-\]: q10 needs some attention, no?
asa31 [8k?\]: flyingo VS jim...aie aie aie, Flyingo is sooooooooooo strong that jim is over!
]
;W[pc]CR[pc]WL[3149.079]C[Dootar [-\]: oO
]
;B[qc]CR[qc]BL[3363.693]C[primacy [1d\]: no it is not over
primacy [1d\]: actually jim is winning
asa31 [8k?\]: i don't think that! :)
StefanK [5d\]: the lower side is the main theme
StefanK [5d\]: here i mean
mpu [-\]: can't white just cut?
StefanK [5d\]: i dont think w can afford to give away sente at the top
StefanK [5d\]: i thought he would
Dootar [-\]: what njnow for w...?
]
;W[nf]CR[nf]WL[3056.463]C[Dootar [-\]: now*
]
;B[ro]CR[ro]BL[3356.134]C[aldero [20k\]: why s5?
DrGoPlayer [-\]: leaning attack against right side?
]
;W[mr]CR[mr]WL[3020.078]C[StefanK [5d\]: test move
Javaness [5k\]: S4 takes an eye
]
;B[nr]CR[nr]BL[3343.328]C[StefanK [5d\]: w p5 is still important
]
;W[rp]CR[rp]WL[2991.4]C[aldero [20k\]: anyway w was alive ¿?
KoGeima [1d?\]: why w doesn't cut b at O5 ?
DrGoPlayer [-\]: s4 killed w
KoGeima [1d?\]: i know it...
KoGeima [1d?\]: earlier?
StefanK [5d\]: i think w should have cut
StefanK [5d\]: not now ofcourse
KoGeima [1d?\]: yep
KoGeima [1d?\]: i think so too
Javaness [5k\]: any way to pressure L3
aldero [20k\]: maybe is afraid...
StefanK [5d\]: just m6 or so already feels good for w
aldero [20k\]: =)
allpotti [6d\]: not certain that, w can get profit from O5 cut, in tis position cuz, W's Q10 stones are also thin,
]
;B[nj]CR[nj]BL[3214.343]C[StefanK [5d\]: but b is probably contemplateting attacking L3 right away
Dootar [-\]: r8?
]
;W[nd]CR[nd]WL[2955.302]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: :)))
Dootar [-\]: xD
KoGeima [1d?\]: go go go
KoGeima [1d?\]: :))
]
;B[og]CR[og]BL[3173.291]
;W[of]CR[of]WL[2943.18]
;B[pf]CR[pf]BL[3171.51]
;W[qg]CR[qg]WL[2938.178]
;B[oh]CR[oh]BL[3169.376]C[PAG2 [-\]: who will draw first blood?
StefanK [5d\]: theres already a lot going on
StefanK [5d\]: what about w r13?
Javaness [5k\]: this looks very dangerous for white
writer [6k?\]: is already there
Dootar [-\]: two weak-ish groups
]
;W[qi]CR[qi]WL[2783.65]C[Soeren [7k\]: rocksolid, watching at o11
StefanK [5d\]: i mean now r11 was needed, so what about w q12 instead of r13?
Dootar [-\]: p17? or is that kind passive?
]
;B[pb]CR[pb]BL[3092.2]C[StefanK [5d\]: the b stategy of defending against o5 indirectly seems to be working
Soeren [7k\]: run horse run, take the hane and jump out to n12
]
;W[nk]CR[nk]WL[2748.878]C[Soeren [7k\]: ohhhhh
Soeren [7k\]: lost another bet, god damn
StefanK [5d\]: @dotar: even slower than p17 so as not to give away o17 for w
Dootar [-\]: ah....
]
;B[mk]CR[mk]BL[3026.932]C[Soeren [7k\]: what is w gaining with o9 ?
damekichi [2d\]: he creates weaknesses
]
;W[ni]CR[ni]WL[2691.242]C[Dootar [-\]: cutting points i guess
Dootar [-\]: like that^^
DrGoPlayer [-\]: right
Soeren [7k\]: ah, that way
StefanK [5d\]: o9 aims at o11 and o5
aldero [20k\]: ¿?
aldero [20k\]: why aims o5?
Dootar [-\]: o11 is so pretty......
Dootar [-\]: yes
StefanK [5d\]: depending how w answered
]
;B[mi]CR[mi]BL[2940.291]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: :))
StefanK [5d\]: o5 would be a nasty cut if w were strong in the center
Dootar [-\]: o12.. yarrr
Soeren [7k\]: but now black is going to take influence, is w not going to be overconcentrated?
aldero [20k\]: is w triying to cut p6 and p12?
StefanK [5d\]: capturing the cutting stones is also valuable
writer [6k?\]: nice for w to get p12
]
;W[nh]CR[nh]WL[2613.885]C[LasseNHK [11k\]: ko?
]
;B[ng]CR[ng]BL[2930.361]C[StefanK [5d\]: oh
]
;W[oj]CR[oj]WL[2598.309]C[Javaness [5k\]: hmm
Dootar [-\]: ooooo
Soeren [7k\]: b is not going to surrender his stones *G*
Dootar [-\]: nicely done
]
;B[mf]CR[mf]BL[2921.948]C[Soeren [7k\]: he likes his stones :)
Javaness [5k\]: exchange
StefanK [5d\]: looks like o12 was dangerous
StefanK [5d\]: maaybe better p10 right away
Dootar [-\]: I guessed the bad move right.... yay....¬¬
]
;W[ml]CR[ml]WL[2526.461]C[aldero [20k\]: and now?
]
;B[mj]CR[mj]BL[2910.742]
;W[ol]CR[ol]WL[2509.483]C[Javaness [5k\]: o5 big now
]
;B[ln]CR[ln]BL[2892.776]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: now it will be difficult fight for w
Dootar [-\]: o5 gone finally
Javaness [5k\]: g3?
Soeren [7k\]: now black has the control, how boring. it is always the same with this black player
Soeren [7k\]: how boring
DrGoPlayer [-\]: m8 needed?
StefanK [5d\]: i think so
StefanK [5d\]: that means b got m6 in sente
]
;W[kl]CR[kl]WL[2415.087]C[StefanK [5d\]: ah, L8 better in this special caser
KoGeima [1d?\]: J5
]
;B[mh]CR[mh]BL[2794.597]C[DrGoPlayer [-\]: j5 gives w big area
Dootar [-\]: no p11...?
writer [6k?\]: I wonder too
ToDie [5k\]: p11 not needed
DrGoPlayer [-\]: b says I can live :-)
StefanK [5d\]: n12 is an excellent point
Aleksm [4k?\]: p11 small
TheMage [5k\]: n12 prevents the forcing move at m12
Dootar [-\]: but doesnt it accomplish the same thing?
StefanK [5d\]: but i expected k5 or k6 first
Illo [8k\]: now b looks bad... iguess
Illo [8k\]: lower left
Illo [8k\]: *right*
measwel [10k?\]: R7?
]
;W[ip]CR[ip]WL[2320.841]C[StefanK [5d\]: but k5 and k6 were miai i guess
aldero [20k\]: why w don't care about top..?
LasseNHK [11k\]: sansan? or too early?
StefanK [5d\]: w could not profitably take one of them directly
]
;B[ql]CR[ql]BL[2753.039]C[Dootar [-\]: sansan... maybe....
StefanK [5d\]: too early
KoGeima [1d?\]: agree :))
DrGoPlayer [-\]: n3 makes eye in gote
StefanK [5d\]: the right side group is important now
LasseNHK [11k\]: hummm ok
Dootar [-\]: given up on o14 area?
writer [6k?\]: k6?
]
;W[jn]CR[jn]WL[2264.567]C[SILD [7k\]: nice game
StefanK [5d\]: b has a fortress at the top now
aldero [20k\]: agree
StefanK [5d\]: later maybe somerthing like w L17
writer [6k?\]: b must live now on the right
Dootar [-\]: hmm....
Javaness [5k\]: white got a lot here
StefanK [5d\]: but quiet a bit too early
Hendrix [5k\]: b might die a horrible death
aldero [20k\]: ok
Dootar [-\]: w could sacrifice them
Dootar [-\]: b i mean
LasseNHK [11k\]: l7?
LasseNHK [11k\]: L7
StefanK [5d\]: interesting how brefused to move out with his group
aldero [20k\]: is b in trouble now?
Dootar [-\]: c'mon b, sacrifice it !
measwel [10k?\]: could he cut M8?
TheMage [5k\]: b would have been in trouble if he moved out
Arctic [2d\]: k6 seems to good to allow
StefanK [5d\]: they will live for sure
]
;B[mq]CR[mq]BL[2613.585]C[measwel [10k?\]: looking for it already
LasseNHK [11k\]: cant he get away with L7?
writer [6k?\]: to where?
Hendrix [5k\]: o5?
StefanK [5d\]: yes, but he will play there only at need
measwel [10k?\]: L7 M8?
Dootar [-\]: i fail to see how
Kamyk [2k\]: black live
]
;W[no]CR[no]WL[2201.503]C[LasseNHK [11k\]: if w block with k7 he cuts in m8
]
;B[mo]CR[mo]BL[2597.873]C[Dootar [-\]: then w m9
]
;W[mm]CR[mm]WL[2194.951]
;B[po]CR[po]BL[2595.527]
;W[op]CR[op]WL[2192.906]
;B[mn]CR[mn]BL[2593.82]C[LasseNHK [11k\]: yeah but the w group is cut
]
;W[ob]CR[ob]WL[2152.144]C[Dootar [-\]: i think b would die before w
]
;B[oc]CR[oc]BL[2571.352]C[LasseNHK [11k\]: hummm that possible hihihih
]
;W[nc]CR[nc]WL[2138.812]C[StefanK [5d\]: p18 is interesting
]
;B[od]CR[od]BL[2557.873]C[IvanIV [18k?\]: pls** what MASTER means?
StefanK [5d\]: looking for a way to make a move on the right sente
Illo [8k\]: its a tournament i think
Illo [8k\]: and a room ^;-)
TheMage [5k\]: master means, one of the best
IvanIV [18k?\]: its KGS intern?
Kamyk [2k\]: yes !
LasseNHK [11k\]: they are playing a tournament?
IvanIV [18k?\]: ok thx
]
;W[kb]CR[kb]WL[2043.643]C[IvanIV [18k?\]: *test
IvanIV [18k?\]: damn lag all the time
Oleg2711 [5k\]: Master is the man who does his job very well
LasseNHK [11k\]: =)
LasseNHK [11k\]: is roln a kid?
]
;B[jc]CR[jc]BL[2475.686]C[aldero [20k\]: and.. what about b o15
]
;W[jb]CR[jb]WL[2038.165]
;B[ib]CR[ib]BL[2474.6]
;W[ic]CR[ic]WL[2035.901]C[Illo [8k\]: yes....ca.17 i think
]
;B[hb]CR[hb]BL[2470.398]C[Javaness [5k\]: hmm
LasseNHK [11k\]: cool
StefanK [5d\]: whoa, b played the toughest resonse
Dootar [-\]: w looking pitiful there
]
;W[le]CR[le]WL[1983.47]
;B[kf]CR[kf]BL[2442.373]C[Javaness [5k\]: looks like a ripper
Illo [8k\]: stefan ...wie schaut es denn aus?...ist s vorne?
]
;W[jd]CR[jd]WL[1962.381]
;B[kc]CR[kc]BL[2440.253]
;W[ke]CR[ke]WL[1959.777]
;B[id]CR[id]BL[2437.499]
;W[je]CR[je]WL[1956.613]
;B[hc]CR[hc]BL[2435.802]C[LasseNHK [11k\]: ich glaube ya
]
;W[lc]CR[lc]WL[1943.25]
;B[mb]CR[mb]BL[2434.609]C[StefanK [5d\]: b attacked too strongly i think
]
;W[ld]CR[ld]WL[1935.588]
;B[ic]CR[ic]BL[2432.687]C[StefanK [5d\]: b still leading though
Dootar [-\]: c11?
StefanK [5d\]: something at the top for sure
dolphyfan [21k\]: what's the downside of attacking "too strongly"?
TheMage [5k\]: assuming white is successful here, black still needs some success at bottom
StefanK [5d\]: w is breaking through the center
LasseNHK [11k\]: why not protect the san san c3?
Dootar [-\]: attack too strongly and you leave weaknesses\\
Ringelpiez [12k\]: O15, to put some pressure on N9 group?
dolphyfan [21k\]: aha. thank you
StefanK [5d\]: w would wish he had already saved o14 :-)
KoGeima [1d?\]: O15 too dangerous for w seems
TheMage [5k\]: o15 is too slow
StefanK [5d\]: yup
Ringelpiez [12k\]: so he will run furst?
TheMage [5k\]: black can just push from his weaker center group into his strength at the top
StefanK [5d\]: no time for that now
TheMage [5k\]: w must run like the wind
KoGeima [1d?\]: J14
StefanK [5d\]: k14 seems normal, but w isnt thrilled at the prospect
IvanIV [18k?\]: hehe
KoGeima [1d?\]: maybe
Dootar [-\]: i would expect j14
KoGeima [1d?\]: yep... maybe k14
KoGeima [1d?\]: but J14 also possible seems
LiKui: J13 seem ok also
TheMage [5k\]: j13 not so good
]
;W[kg]CR[kg]WL[1595.053]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: :))
xDarigaaz [9k\]: J13 wasnt so bad
KoGeima [1d?\]: really? :))
xDarigaaz [9k\]: L13 is propably better then 9d plays it :) but i like J13
]
;B[ig]CR[ig]BL[2310.578]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: :))
]
;W[jg]CR[jg]WL[1574.427]C[StefanK [5d\]: i like J13
xDarigaaz [9k\]: :)
KoGeima [1d?\]: for b
]
;B[if]CR[if]BL[2290.552]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: :))
KoGeima [1d?\]: not for w
TheMage [5k\]: little different for blkac
TheMage [5k\]: black
StefanK [5d\]: w m13?
xDarigaaz [9k\]: of course its good for black now but try to play it for white isnt so bad
]
;W[lg]CR[lg]WL[1530.014]
;B[ne]CR[ne]BL[2287.119]C[TheMage [5k\]: yes it is :P
xDarigaaz [9k\]: no :)
StefanK [5d\]: things are working out nicely for b
]
;W[ji]CR[ji]WL[1438.614]
;B[ih]CR[ih]BL[2279.937]
;W[kj]CR[kj]WL[1421.338]C[StefanK [5d\]: J12 is proof
]
;B[cq]CR[cq]BL[2272.501]C[SILD [7k\]: roln rocks
KoGeima [1d?\]: so.. sansan
TheMage [5k\]: black having sente was blacks dream
KoGeima [1d?\]: b still ahead
]
;W[co]CR[co]WL[1364.168]C[TheMage [5k\]: komi is 7.5?
aboulafia [11k?\]: I bet B wins !
StefanK [5d\]: b sente was the expected result, but ofcourse funny thing can always happen
KoGeima [1d?\]: 6?5
]
;B[er]CR[er]BL[2252.047]C[KoGeima [1d?\]: 6,5
robertm [4d?\]: b better have sente if w upper right stones are saved
]
;W[gr]CR[gr]WL[1342.638]C[TheMage [5k\]: yea, but doesnt always happen that way
]
;B[bo]CR[bo]BL[2228.04]C[TheMage [5k\]: black made top left solid
]
;W[bn]CR[bn]WL[1326.881]
;B[bp]CR[bp]BL[2226.793]C[Javaness [5k\]: how to enclose the mojo for white?
StefanK [5d\]: living on the spot like that looks good
]
;W[ci]CR[ci]WL[1277.781]C[Illo [8k\]: the pro has to catch up
robertm [4d?\]: mojo too powerful to be enclosed :-)
StefanK [5d\]: the center was not enclosable
TheMage [5k\]: lunch has no chance :P
robertm [4d?\]: perhaps the moyo may be enclosed
]
;B[jk]CR[jk]BL[2168.937]C[TheMage [5k\]: looks like its going to be mutual destruction
]
;W[kk]CR[kk]WL[1243.627]C[robertm [4d?\]: Yes, the MAD strategy
TheMage [5k\]: usually favors person with smaller moyo
Oleg2711 [5k\]: robertm, this moyo-mojo joke was really good, :-)
Goleath [10k\]: "Must All Destroy"?
]
;B[ii]CR[ii]BL[2074.82]C[StefanK [5d\]: J11 looks devastating for w
xDarigaaz [9k\]: this will be painfull for white :)
]
;W[cf]CR[cf]WL[1179.464]C[nitram1 [8k\]: p11 sente
RikiTiki [-\]: p11 best saved for ko threat
erzeccrfe: P11 may not be so sente
TheMage [5k\]: what is p11 sente against?
TheMage [5k\]: o
]
;B[df]CR[df]BL[2013.038]C[TheMage [5k\]: for white
TheMage [5k\]: duh
erzeccrfe: sry it is sente
xDarigaaz [9k\]: for white its big
TheMage [5k\]: i was sitting here thinking, wtf does p11 do for black
RikiTiki [-\]: just 10 or 15 points .... which in this game is enough
Cyclone001 [?\]: sente for w... not for black I think
erzeccrfe: of course not for b
Am [6d\]: кажется у черного совсем хорошо....
xDarigaaz [9k\]: of course not for black :)
Touren [5k?\]: мне тоже
StefanK [5d\]: notice w almost cant play J10 because K12 is sente for b
Tenbatsu [6d\]: Miksi te puhutte venäjää täällä?
Cyclone001 [?\]: the thing that got us confused was the comment was on b's turn
]
;W[be]CR[be]WL[1094.236]C[MacKniver [29k?\]: I don't get much from this game
nitram1 [8k\]: i was about half a second too late :P
Touren [5k?\]: интересно
TheMage [5k\]: b14
RikiTiki [-\]: this game si way beyond most of us, mac....
Am [6d\]: C13 B14 C16
dolphyfan [21k\]: mackniver, this one in particular, or go in general?
StefanK [5d\]: just c16?
MacKniver [29k?\]: this one in partivular
TheMage [5k\]: whats wrong wiht b14
]
;B[bf]CR[bf]BL[1892.488]C[RikiTiki [-\]: white is seeking a ko somewhere, i think
]
;W[cg]CR[cg]WL[1091.42]C[StefanK [5d\]: the b14 takes the side and loses the center
robertm [4d?\]: basi idea is w tried too hard to destroy b upper right and got a heavy group
]
;B[bd]CR[bd]BL[1870.848]
;W[de]CR[de]WL[1088.665]C[TheMage [5k\]: take
robertm [4d?\]: b used that to secure upper left and reduce white lower left
]
;B[ae]CR[ae]BL[1853.897]
;W[cd]CR[cd]WL[1086.752]
;B[be]CR[be]BL[1852.396]C[robertm [4d?\]: It's so simple ;-)
StefanK [5d\]: b is using his wall now to nullify the center instead of trying to make territory there
Illo [8k\]: aggressiv
]
;W[hj]CR[hj]WL[1037.809]C[fatihsulak [1k\]: b seems ok in this game
RikiTiki [-\]: mac, this is a ladder maker
idazuwaika [2k\]: ladder breaker seems effective
D239500800 [-\]: stefank, is this an example of what is known as keshi?
RikiTiki [-\]: i threatens to capture D14
RikiTiki [-\]: it
TheMage [5k\]: d13 seems like a good response
aldero [20k\]: what's a keshi?
Ringelpiez [12k\]: White aims at the J15 ?
Am [6d\]: D13 ?
MacKniver [29k?\]: quite much amazing
StefanK [5d\]: im losing my connection every 2 minutes
]
;B[dh]CR[dh]BL[1768.436]C[TheMage [5k\]: err
StefanK [5d\]: h10 is good beause J10 was so bad
StefanK [5d\]: now theyre having fun
TheMage [5k\]: he played what i meant :P
]
;W[dg]CR[dg]WL[1003.646]
;B[ef]CR[ef]BL[1766.465]C[StefanK [5d\]: d12 is a cool ladderbreak
]
;W[eg]CR[eg]WL[998.423]C[idazuwaika [2k\]: ladderbreakerbreaker
]
;B[fg]CR[fg]BL[1738.322]
;W[ff]CR[ff]WL[995.423]
;B[ee]CR[ee]BL[1736.99]C[dolphyfan [21k\]: ladder fixer?
]
;W[fh]CR[fh]WL[980.742]
;B[gg]CR[gg]BL[1735.406]
;W[ij]CR[ij]WL[975.206]C[Javaness [5k\]: the mojo is big
RikiTiki [-\]: looks like whte got his moyo!
Fredrik [-\]: Yes
RikiTiki [-\]: cool
]
;B[eh]CR[eh]BL[1726.25]C[StefanK [5d\]: j10 was very important now
D239500800 [-\]: ladder breaker breaker? but i don't want to ruin the electricity in her house?
D239500800 [-\]: *!
fatihsulak [1k\]: not yet
D239500800 [-\]: (last ? should be a !)
StefanK [5d\]: they were fighting for sente like crazy
MacKniver [29k?\]: c12?
TheCaptain [4d\]: now which way? sacrifice the stones bigger?
Javaness [5k\]: e11
]
;W[ch]CR[ch]WL[933.532]
;B[fi]CR[fi]BL[1724.324]C[dolphyfan [21k\]: a reach, D2
Javaness [5k\]: gasp
Am [6d\]: у черного неплохо
]
;W[oi]CR[oi]WL[903.656]
;B[mg]CR[mg]BL[1714.273]C[JohnSmith [-\]: Сейчас белый включит вторую передачу на йосе. :))
]
;W[lr]CR[lr]WL[878.704]C[shyfox [14k\]: Que?
erzeccrfe: are you the real John Smith of Pocahantas???
MacKniver [29k?\]: lol
Goleath [10k\]: ^^
D239500800 [-\]: no lo intendimos
alibigood [7k\]: oO
JohnSmith [-\]: No, i'm the real JohnSmith at all!
RikiTiki [-\]: b still looks 15 up to me
TheMage [5k\]: been so long for the bottom right, maybe he forgot how to live
shyfox [14k\]: hehe
erzeccrfe: wow
damekichi [2d\]: Q1
skin: S10
MacKniver [29k?\]: l5 to live?
Goleath [10k\]: say hi to mrs. smith from me will ya
]
;B[rm]CR[rm]BL[1650.257]C[Goleath [10k\]: now for the kill! :)
robertm [4d?\]: white corner not stron enough to attack
StefanK [5d\]: s7 is the safest move
]
;W[rk]CR[rk]WL[850.426]C[TheMage [5k\]: its not dead
skin: S7 seems little
]
;B[qk]CR[qk]BL[1641.338]C[damekichi [2d\]: not killable
robertm [4d?\]: Q1 sente
MacKniver [29k?\]: what does sente mean?
StefanK [5d\]: living is not small :-)
Haloran [20k\]: great game
damekichi [2d\]: follow up S1
]
;W[rj]CR[rj]WL[829.535]C[crazyboy [1k\]: agree
TheMage [5k\]: l5 not sente is enough to live
Javaness [5k\]: sente is b eing in control
RikiTiki [-\]: mac, a sente move is one that must be answered
MacKniver [29k?\]: ok thanks
]
;B[qo]CR[qo]BL[1613.531]C[D239500800 [-\]: sente is initiative
RikiTiki [-\]: or rather, if not answered, can cause great pain
StefanK [5d\]: sente means the other guy/gal has to answer and you can do something new
Goleath [10k\]: I may be mad, but.... Black destroy W eye potential means L7 becomes a way to get into W territory
Goleath [10k\]: as it threathens cut at M8?
erzeccrfe: M2 was really big
erzeccrfe: w may win
TheMage [5k\]: m2 was whites right
TheMage [5k\]: black could never get it
RikiTiki [-\]: what about L5?
damekichi [2d\]: not needed
newgo [13k\]: this I want to see
Illo [8k\]: but has an opening
Sand [2d\]: w still needs some magic to win this one
fatihsulak [1k\]: how to defend moyo from top or bottom
StefanK [5d\]: r5 is not really eyeshape, but q1 is sente against thecorner
damekichi [2d\]: F9 and G3 seems miai...
TheMage [5k\]: q1 and l5 seem like miai
D239500800 [-\]: b L5 could get b a second eye
Ayanami [4k\]: W:4 B: 6, b's ahead in empty triangles therefore w wins ;)
crazyboy [1k\]: w hard to win this game
crazyboy [1k\]: can't enclose the middle in 1 move
Tenbatsu [6d\]: Power squares are one-one: that means a jigo
MacKniver [29k?\]: E3?
]
;W[fk]CR[fk]WL[677.31]C[MacKniver [29k?\]: or has b bo chance there?
D239500800 [-\]: komi is half-integral
D239500800 [-\]: so no jigo
Tenbatsu [6d\]: That means a triple-ko
Ayanami [4k\]: sory Tenbatsu, I didn't count that
D239500800 [-\]: does triple ko count as jigo? i thought jigo only referred to tei score
D239500800 [-\]: *tie
Tenbatsu [6d\]: Ayanami: You still have much to learn, my young padawan
RikiTiki [-\]: triple ko is "no result" game nulled
Kanin [-\]: kgs has no other way to handle it
Valkiry [?\]: L5 ?
Kanin [-\]: oh, ok
RikiTiki [-\]: though, i think superko makes it not happen
]
;B[ps]CR[ps]BL[1538.638]C[Javaness [5k\]: omg Tenbatsu just turned 50
GSK: thripple ko should be played out
Dirge [6k\]: there it came ;P
]
;W[qs]CR[qs]WL[668.736]C[GSK: the extra moves in it are automatic so not too much longer
RikiTiki [-\]: and i heard KGS now does superko
]
;B[fq]CR[fq]BL[1515.54]C[Javaness [5k\]: KGS has done superko in NZ for ages
GSK: easy to test do a 2x2 =p
bison [7k\]: f9 - f3 were miai...
damekichi [2d\]: ^^
]
;W[nb]CR[nb]WL[629.268]C[Macro [16k?\]: wow, this is a cool game
GSK: f3 bigger
Tenbatsu [6d\]: Macro: Yeah, go is a really cool game indeed
damekichi [2d\]: seems hard for white
SILD [7k\]: o18 seems small
Macro [16k?\]: hahaha ;D
crazyboy [1k\]: but o18 means resign
Javaness [5k\]: this is no game
]
;B[gq]CR[gq]BL[1481.664]C[crazyboy [1k\]: the middle are fully broken
crazyboy [1k\]: is
]
;W
CR
WL[610.419]C[Tenbatsu [6d\]: All your base are belong to us
skin: E5
vogelfrei [13k\]: na w plans killing corner
Valkiry [?\]: move zig
Macro [16k?\]: for great justice.
TheMage [5k\]: white is going to try to cheese out points by getting m18 too
StefanK [5d\]: you have no chance to survive, make youre time
RikiTiki [-\]: vog, no way to kill korner with Q1 in place, vog
StefanK [5d\]: ha ha ha ha
Valkiry [?\]: lol guys
SILD [7k\]: w cant kill anything
RikiTiki [-\]: or at least, no way i can see
blbn [2k\]: w losing
vogelfrei [13k\]: i meant lower left ^^
Gresil [17k\]: don't kill alexis korner
fatihsulak [1k\]: B2 u mean :-)
]
;B[lb]CR[lb]BL[1409.005]C[TheMage [5k\]: black set white up the bomb
RikiTiki [-\]: oh... lower left looks alive to me, too
Javaness [5k\]: O1 is really not needed?
TheMage [5k\]: o1 and l5 are miaia
Tenbatsu [6d\]: O1 is really not needed
Macro [16k?\]: main goban turn on
]
;W[go]CR[go]WL[589.802]C[RikiTiki [-\]: o1 is safety valve
Valkiry [?\]: main ko turn on
]
;B[hq]CR[hq]BL[1399.838]
;W[iq]CR[iq]WL[586.981]C[Javaness [5k\]: ah true
TheMage [5k\]: yes, miaia is the new term
damekichi [2d\]: S14 is big
]
;B[ej]CR[ej]BL[1376.265]C[nitram1 [8k\]: m18 bigger than g5?
MacKniver [29k?\]: b got out
fatihsulak [1k\]: B+15 i think
Valkiry [?\]: that'd be ...nasty
TheMage [5k\]: black gets to poke out some more center before s14
damekichi [2d\]: for white G5 was the bigger i guess
GSK: who has a good estimate
]
;W[di]CR[di]WL[549.605]C[TheMage [5k\]: backpast probably has a good estimate
Valkiry [?\]: this is also an interesting game in regards of estimating vic1000's strength when he plays roln
bison [7k\]: B+R
damekichi [2d\]: white want s the sente
Valkiry [?\]: since backpast is also pro
SILD [7k\]: E9 ?
erzeccrfe: backpast "weak" pro
damekichi [2d\]: but is this sente ?
jeoker [8k\]: i think black is winning
jeoker [8k\]: around 10 points
Valkiry [?\]: why is he weak? didnt he kill a group of catalin taranu 5p on EGC ?
]
;B[ei]CR[ei]BL[1300.263]C[Valkiry [?\]: and win against some 9p
erzeccrfe: lol...
erzeccrfe: catalin made a mis
erzeccrfe: was winning otherwise
MacKniver [29k?\]: 9p > 9dan ?
Valkiry [?\]: lol what logic is that
jeoker [8k\]: sure MacKniver
SILD [7k\]: backpast is european's best player
]
;W[dk]CR[dk]WL[512.979]C[GSK: no mac pro is between dan and kyu
]
;B[jh]CR[jh]BL[1296.702]C[GSK: 9p<1d
erzeccrfe: then don t say " he killed a group" but "he won"
Bouton [1k\]: no
]
;W[kh]CR[kh]WL[502.861]C[MacKniver [29k?\]: ok
tarragone [9k?\]: gsk, you know that isn't true
Bouton [1k\]: fanhui is 2p , no?
damekichi [2d\]: yes
GSK: most pros dream of becoming amature dans
erzeccrfe: lol
aboulafia [11k?\]: well, few of them succeed
]
;B[ek]CR[ek]BL[1249.577]C[Tenbatsu [6d\]: The official day of bad jokes
vogelfrei [13k\]: some amas made it to kyu
GSK: backpast has! as of now!
]
;W[el]CR[el]WL[493.288]
;B[gj]CR[gj]BL[1248.411]C[skin: F5
]
;W[ed]CR[ed]WL[460.835]C[crazyboy [1k\]: f5,e3
GSK: !
patrac [?\]: 9d<1p
]
;B[dd]CR[dd]BL[1224.07]C[Tenbatsu [6d\]: Don't start this *again*
GSK: actually 9d!=1p
GSK: no greaters or less than
Illo [8k\]: just say p means professional
GSK: depends on each one
Illo [8k\]: so difficult?
fatihsulak [1k\]: time for complications
erzeccrfe: 9d can be <,>or + to 1p
idazuwaika [2k\]: dont matter what you all say.. one day kyu will be stronger than dan
tarragone [9k?\]: fatih, in the game or kibitz?
erzeccrfe: =*
Lunatic [2k?\]: an amateur is an amateur and has nothing on a pro
fatihsulak [1k\]: both :-)
Am [6d\]: very strong is b
dolphyfan [21k\]: 30k....1k...1d....9d...1p....9p
RikiTiki [-\]: pro rank not equivalent to strength, traditionally, was matter of accomplishment
MacKniver [29k?\]: so there is a huge niveau boost between 9p and 9dan
Lunatic [2k?\]: there is a huge dif between 9dan and 1p
erzeccrfe: 9d kgs can be 9p
Lunatic [2k?\]: Lol
moonlapse [?\]: no Lunatic
Am [6d\]: now H11 is impossible...
Am [6d\]: for w
moonlapse [?\]: look at Jie Li
]
;W[fr]CR[fr]WL[372.949]C[Lunatic [2k?\]: sigh you ppl should actaually see when a pro playes seriously
]
;B[dq]CR[dq]BL[1214.715]C[erzeccrfe: ?
Lunatic [2k?\]: and you would notice how weak 9dan kgs is
erzeccrfe: man...
GSK: they arnt gods lunatic =p
erzeccrfe: 9dan kgs can be 9p
]
;W[ep]CR[ep]WL[350.411]C[SanKingTim [5d\]: это конец
Lunatic [2k?\]: no they arent gods, but they are professionals
erzeccrfe: what you say is nonsense
TheMage [5k\]: when someone asks you if you are a god, you say yes
Am [6d\]: b has big advantege....
]
;B[eq]CR[eq]BL[1202.645]C[Lunatic [2k?\]: erzeccrfe, you are wrong
]
;W[gk]CR[gk]WL[336.121]
;B[hi]CR[hi]BL[1200.647]C[GSK: har
erzeccrfe: no,you are wrong
crazyboy [1k\]: most kgs 9d is about 4~6d amas ,</= 1p
Lunatic [2k?\]: true
erzeccrfe: i agree average 9d weaker than 1p
]
;W[ki]CR[ki]WL[309.153]C[GSK: not all tho
erzeccrfe: but a 9d kgs can be 9p
skin: S14
erzeccrfe: since 9d is highest ranking
MacKniver [29k?\]: and I'm having a hard time to understand most of the moves from this game :(
crazyboy [1k\]: if a 9p play in kgs,he must be very boring
Illo [8k\]: can but there is no one
Lunatic [2k?\]: thats why they have p rnakings in kgs too
TheMage [5k\]: actually
Lunatic [2k?\]: dumb ass
Lunatic [2k?\]: oh well
GSK: dumbass
Lunatic [2k?\]: enuf of this, back to the game
tarragone [9k?\]: mackniver, so am i :)
erzeccrfe: lol
damekichi [2d\]: B7 looks big too
chaboot [8k\]: no 9p is interested in KGS
vogelfrei [13k\]: isnt s15 sorta big?
GSK: someone could play perfect and get 9d rating
erzeccrfe: dumbass?
TheMage [5k\]: left side jump is big too
GSK: pro is just a designation by a government
bison [7k\]: vic1000 was saing roln111 was about 10kyu koreaninsei
patrac [?\]: yang huiren have lose againts a 8d kgs
Am [6d\]: S14 is bigger
erzeccrfe: man,you think a pro can t make an account like that,with no p
damekichi [2d\]: yes
erzeccrfe: you are a dumbass
damekichi [2d\]: but gote
Javaness [5k\]: sigh
vogelfrei [13k\]: i mean s15 for w
]
;B[dj]CR[dj]BL[1122.896]C[SunnyD [1k?\]: that's not the real yang
]
;W[cj]CR[cj]WL[305.041]
;B[bk]CR[bk]BL[1116.642]C[patrac [?\]: sure?
dolphyfan [21k\]: enough of the namecalling, huh?
Lunatic [2k?\]: funny thing is that ppl in kgs dont realize that pros that play here, pretty much only teach their 9dan kgs opponents
damekichi [2d\]: white has to resist
]
;W[ck]CR[ck]WL[287.171]C[RikiTiki [-\]: amazing, w is catching up... ouch! b just made up the diff again
erzeccrfe: very funny ,yes
crazyboy [1k\]: pts redution
TheMage [5k\]: are you using score estimate?
skin: A11 ?
RikiTiki [-\]: se makes for lotsa fun
GSK: you cant really tell the differnence in their strength being 2k anyways
RikiTiki [-\]: but not for good estimate
erzeccrfe: what?lunatic is a 2k?....he is very strong and clever
Lunatic [2k?\]: GSK, u dont have the slightest idea how strong I am, and you have no idea can or can't I
erzeccrfe: lol
Lunatic [2k?\]: so dont speculate
SanKingTim [5d\]: b+10
]
;B[an]CR[an]BL[1031.054]
;W[bm]CR[bm]WL[280.138]
;B[cp]CR[cp]BL[1029.432]
;W[cm]CR[cm]WL[269.571]
;B[ai]CR[ai]BL[1027.227]C[Ciovo [9k\]: is the black group on the bottom right safe without black O1?
GSK: i have an idea
damekichi [2d\]: no damn good...
Am [6d\]: илья в йосе - это нечто....
damekichi [2d\]: so
]
;W[ko]CR[ko]WL[252.211]
;B[ns]CR[ns]BL[1023.728]C[GSK: only games against good players were cram 2k
GSK: u lost both
GSK: you cant be that good
bison [7k\]: S15?
]
;W[es]CR[es]WL[239.334]C[Lunatic [2k?\]: did u know that Cram is actually 2dan?
]
;B[ds]CR[ds]BL[1019.247]
;W[fs]CR[fs]WL[237.435]C[Lunatic [2k?\]: and I was leading against happy hippo
GSK: so
Lunatic [2k?\]: when i lost in time
erzeccrfe: who cares?
GSK: i beat rapyuta 9d with 4
Lunatic [2k?\]: and hippo is 4dan
sheehan [4d\]: s14
Kanin [-\]: it's also irrelevant weather lunatic can tell difference himself or not, this is information that he could hold anyway
Lunatic [2k?\]: GSK, yea right
crazyboy [1k\]: q19?
GSK: i was logged on my gfs account sarisweets
ItachiSan [14k\]: why dopnt u guys play
GSK: check the record
Lunatic [2k?\]: i should quit feeding the trolls -_-
GSK: dumbass
TheMage [5k\]: how is cram 2d if his rating is 2k?
Lunatic [2k?\]: Mage, he hasen't played
Lunatic [2k?\]: enuf
Valkiry [?\]: 10k? that means a 1 p can give roln 9 stones?
GSK: me a troll? lol
Valkiry [?\]: i dont think so :)
StefanK [5d\]: was d1 correct?
GSK: how bout yoruself?
ItachiSan [14k\]: why dont you guys play so we can watch the game and the chat dont get flooded
]
;B[br]CR[br]BL[950.571]
;W[re]CR[re]WL[234.19]
;B[rd]CR[rd]BL[947.938]C[crazyboy [1k\]: 9p can't give 1p 8stones
]
;W[pa]CR[pa]WL[229.703]
;B[qb]CR[qb]BL[946.495]C[Valkiry [?\]: if roln were 10k korean insei, does that mean a 1p should be able to give him 9 hc? ^^
Am [6d\]: я думаю, уже около 20 очков разница....
erzeccrfe: you should realize you are trolling lunatic
bison [7k\]: korean insei is very strong
erzeccrfe: pimping your victories
]
;W[qf]CR[qf]WL[225]C[TheMage [5k\]: cram has played plenty
TheMage [5k\]: looks like he is a 2k
GrandYan [7k?\]: Valkiry, don't think it's 10k in the literal sense. It's more like tenth class insei I believe.
StefanK [5d\]: b by 10 was a good estimate
Valkiry [?\]: aha
ItachiSan [14k\]: maybe his 4d in some other countries but not in kgs
]
;B[kp]CR[kp]BL[926.578]C[Lunatic [2k?\]: TheMage, I know Cram, he is a friend of mine
Valkiry [?\]: vic on the other hand is kind of weird..lol
Lunatic [2k?\]: I know exactly how strong he is when he playes serious
ItachiSan [14k\]: right
Valkiry [?\]: u never know how strong he really is
GSK: regardless, even if hes 2d or something thats not good enough to tell differrnece between pros and 9ds
ArCosH [5k\]: 'victory pimping' is funny :)
]
;W[jp]CR[jp]WL[225]
;B[hp]CR[hp]BL[918.144]
;W[ho]CR[ho]WL[225]
;B[fp]CR[fp]BL[915.916]
;W[fo]CR[fo]WL[225]C[Lunatic [2k?\]: irrelevant
Lunatic [2k?\]: and stop trolling
]
;B[qe]CR[qe]BL[906.847]C[bison [7k\]: new wave of insei are 2 stones stronger than 8p
damekichi [2d\]: i don t think black wins by 10 pts...maybe 3 or 4 pts.
GSK: the classic troll tactic of accusing others of trolling :?)
]
;W[se]CR[se]WL[225]C[sheehan [4d\]: b+ 10 plus
newgo [13k\]: your crazy boy
TotoroShan [15k\]: what means troll ?
Javaness [5k\]: black has done well
Cleric [6k\]: A10 need for b
Lunatic [2k?\]: anyone can scroll up and read what u have said GSK
ItachiSan [14k\]: oh yea if roln is 10th calss insei... then that makes breakfast not 1p?
Lunatic [2k?\]: i rest my case
GSK: yes, reasonable statements
GSK: i rest my case
]
;B[ah]CR[ah]BL[857.325]C[GrandYan [7k?\]: Itacxhi, you have take into consideration that they're playing online.
]
;W[qa]CR[qa]WL[225]
;B[ra]CR[ra]BL[854.14]C[damekichi [2d\]: some korean insei are already stronger than pros...
]
;W[oa]CR[oa]WL[225]C[kichiBlitz [17k\]: look the info of roln
ItachiSan [14k\]: whats the diff grand?
kichiBlitz [17k\]: he has win a 8p
]
;B[rb]CR[rb]BL[840.416]C[kichiBlitz [17k\]: vic100
Lunatic [2k?\]: vic1000 doesen't play seriously in kgs
kichiBlitz [17k\]: a 1p is not a problem for him
Lunatic [2k?\]: he teaches
]
;W[ma]CR[ma]WL[225]C[crazyboy [1k\]: that 8p is too old
]
;B[ja]CR[ja]BL[838.481]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: i believe that was a teaching game
GSK: point is, pro is a disignation you can get by being stong, not having it dosnt necessarily mean that you are not the same strength as some pros
moh [12k\]: whether
GrandYan [7k?\]: The difference is that W might not be entirely serious
fatihsulak [1k\]: but vic is very strong
GSK: average case!=all cases
debiatorex [6k\]: yes, most of his strength is gone, still he is versy strong
MacKniver [29k?\]: can a pro go player make a living with this game?
ItachiSan [14k\]: umm
bison [7k\]: he said he was playing to win thou
debiatorex [6k\]: yeah,
ItachiSan [14k\]: that is why his "pro"
GSK: yes mac
]
;W[ie]CR[ie]WL[225]
;B[he]CR[he]BL[836.571]C[StefanK [5d\]: are you thinking of a career?
debiatorex [6k\]: but you have to include the teaching classes
dolphyfan [21k\]: define living
MacKniver [29k?\]: not really
GSK: one tourney gives 300k and a new lexus
MacKniver [29k?\]: just wondering
GrandYan [7k?\]: MacKniver, the top pros get upwards of 400000 USD each year.
ItachiSan [14k\]: 300k that should be weaker than bots
debiatorex [6k\]: most pro teach and pay their annual games
debiatorex [6k\]: play
]
;W[ph]CR[ph]WL[225]C[MacKniver [29k?\]: but the lower class of players wouldn't get that kuch
dolphyfan [21k\]: but the rest of the pro's supplement their income anyway they can
GrandYan [7k?\]: That's true.
GrandYan [7k?\]: The lower class ones get money by teaching mostly...
MacKniver [29k?\]: something which wouldn't happen that easily in europe I reckon
]
;B[rl]CR[rl]BL[774.788]C[crazyboy [1k\]: pro are being in a go club,if he win some money,have to give some to the go club which will support the pro's living
Batavia [11k\]: is roln111 a pro too?
]
;W[bg]CR[bg]WL[225]
;B[ag]CR[ag]BL[772.877]C[GrandYan [7k?\]: No.
ItachiSan [14k\]: so in the end roln is a strong 9d
MacKniver [29k?\]: so pro's indirectly earn each others livings?
GSK: see amature CAN beat pro =p
ItachiSan [14k\]: well
ItachiSan [14k\]: aguilar beat a 9p
bison [7k\]: iit seems he is going korean insei soon...
GrandYan [7k?\]: 2 9ps
dede [-\]: roln is european 6d
Valkiry [?\]: aguilar is very strong ama
hikari99 [3d\]: i think backpast's pro rank is honorary and doesn't mean he's as strong as korean 1p
]
;W[qj]CR[qj]WL[180]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: o agree hikaru
Javaness [5k\]: he lost the Russian Professional Championship game
]
;B[sd]CR[sd]BL[770.04]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: i mean hikari
Javaness [5k\]: maybe he's having a abd patch
]
;W[rf]CR[rf]WL[180]C[GrandYan [7k?\]: To an amateur :)
]
;B[kn]CR[kn]BL[766.082]C[runtt21 [?\]: backpast beat other pro before
GSK: its hard to rate peoples strengths withouht them playing many games together
]
;W[km]CR[km]WL[180]
;B[jr]CR[jr]BL[763.697]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: well
]
;W[ir]CR[ir]WL[180]C[GSK: he could be as strong, maybe maybe not
ItachiSan [14k\]: they are not bots
]
;B[jq]CR[jq]BL[760.743]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: human tend to play good sometimes and bad other times
GSK: my point
GSK: you need to get an average
Batavia [11k\]: K3?
GSK: takes many games
ItachiSan [14k\]: because the way they feel really defines their str
newgo [13k\]: difference between my wife and a professional is: the professional does it for money :)
StefanK [5d\]: wow
Area53 [11k\]: I'm wondering as well.
ItachiSan [14k\]: if im sleepy i suck i dont see ataris
ItachiSan [14k\]: ^^
SILD [7k\]: huh?
]
;W[js]CR[js]WL[180]C[StefanK [5d\]: the cut first makes m1 possible
]
;B[ls]CR[ls]BL[757.611]C[Valkiry [?\]: i wonder why a free bot like gnu go is so top ranked among the bots
]
;W[pm]CR[pm]WL[180]
;B[qm]CR[qm]BL[754.054]C[Valkiry [?\]: instead of some private highly sponsored science project
Valkiry [?\]: of any go association or company or whatever
GSK: more funding doenst necessarily mean better =p
MacKniver [29k?\]: free is always better aye?
]
;W[la]CR[la]WL[180]C[GSK: linux is arguaby better than windows, which has more funding
]
;B[ka]CR[ka]BL[749.186]
;W[na]CR[na]WL[180]
;B[sp]CR[sp]BL[742.183]C[Valkiry [?\]: well if you seriously pay top personnel that should really make a difference
]
;W[sq]CR[sq]WL[180]
;B[so]CR[so]BL[740.97]C[MacKniver [29k?\]: also take the ammount of time in consideration
]
;W[sl]CR[sl]WL[180]
;B[sm]CR[sm]BL[738.958]
;W[sk]CR[sk]WL[180]C[MacKniver [29k?\]: a bot needs to calculate his way out
]
;B[ms]CR[ms]BL[732.882]
;W[kr]CR[kr]WL[180]
;B[lo]CR[lo]BL[731.187]
;W[jo]CR[jo]WL[180]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: bots always have the same str
]
;B[nm]CR[nm]BL[727.095]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: and hell they tenuki alot
GSK: no they will get better
MacKniver [29k?\]: bots can me way stronger
ItachiSan [14k\]: even dying
skin: B win
MacKniver [29k?\]: be
]
;W[nl]CR[nl]WL[180]
;B[pk]CR[pk]BL[721.99]
;W[mc]CR[mc]WL[180]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: gsk i will hate go when they can beat 9ps
]
;B[kb]CR[kb]BL[719.745]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: it just removes the fun of it
Tsujigiri [4d\]: A bot wont be able to beat a 1-dan level player in hundreds of years.. That's what I think
]
;W[me]CR[me]WL[180]C[GSK: i guess not beat 9ps for another hundred or so years
]
;B[jf]CR[jf]BL[712.686]
;W[lf]CR[lf]WL[180]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: we never know
GSK: and thats if some good effort put into it
xingjian [4d\]: to loose with lag pretty bad way
]
;B[oe]CR[oe]BL[700.219]C[Valkiry [?\]: i think a serious attempt of 1d bot could succeed^^
GSK: tsujigiri i disagree
StefanK [5d\]: in a hundred years, ofcourse bots will have dan strength
MacKniver [29k?\]: AI is hot nowadays
MacKniver [29k?\]: Go is the perfect challenge
]
;W[bj]CR[bj]WL[180]
;B[aj]CR[aj]BL[697.126]C[StefanK [5d\]: the question is about pro strength
]
;W[am]CR[am]WL[180]C[sheehan [4d\]: p9
]
;B[ao]CR[ao]BL[695.837]C[egen [11k?\]: Все,
ItachiSan [14k\]: though thinking of it internet have like 20 yrs or so.. and look how much it change
GSK: brute force can do great things, our comps are not currently fast enough
]
;W[ok]CR[ok]WL[180]
;B[gi]CR[gi]BL[692.133]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: graphics of movie and such
]
;W[bl]CR[bl]WL[180]
;B[ak]CR[ak]BL[689.918]C[ItachiSan [14k\]: i mean hell SW is much better
]
;W[bi]CR[bi]WL[180]
;B[af]CR[af]BL[688.523]
;W[]WL[180]C[Valkiry [?\]: brute force doesnt work on go
]
;B[]BL[688.523]TW[md][sf][rg][sg][qh][rh][sh][pi][ri][si][jj][sj][hk][ik][jk][dl][fl][gl][hl][il][jl][dm][em][fm][gm][hm][im][jm][cn][en][fn][gn][hn][in][do][eo][io][jq][qq][jr][rr][sr][gs][hs][is][rs][ss]TB[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][ga][ha][ia][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][fb][gb][jb][sb][ac][bc][cc][ec][fc][gc][pc][rc][sc][ad][cd][ed][fd][gd][hd][pd][de][fe][ge][ff][gf][hf][nf][of][hg][fh][gh][hh][qn][rn][sn][ap][mp][aq][bq][ar][cr][dr][as][bs][cs][os]C[GSK: would with enough of it
Hendrix [5k\]: gg
suzakusan [12k?\]: nice game
MacKniver [29k?\]: gg
GSK: and a good position estimator
FlameBlade [-\]: good game
ItachiSan [14k\]: well maybe bots will never have the tricky part of man
runtt21 [?\]: wow
Valkiry [?\]: wow
Area53 [11k\]: Nice
StefanK [5d\]: congrats
Tsujigiri [4d\]: brute force could probably solve life & death problems
Area53 [11k\]: Congratulations
backpast [9d?\]: thx
roln111 [9d\]: спасибо
Tsujigiri [4d\]: but fuseki & joseki it would be bad in
MacKniver [29k?\]: AI solves the rest
SILD [7k\]: good game
StefanK [5d\]: and thanks to both players for playing here
dolphyfan [21k\]: get anything out of it, mac?
DEMBEL [9k\]: "Если б я имел коня это был бы номер.."
GSK: in a hundred or two years
GSK: it will probably be good enough for fueski and joseki
MacKniver [29k?\]: I happen to see B got his winning :)
Aleksm [4k?\]: i hope they will play again in final
Tsujigiri [4d\]: I am glad I wont be living when a bot beats a pro player
Tsujigiri [4d\]: It's not funny to play a solved game
Tsujigiri [4d\]: It's like there is no challenge anymore
GSK: untrue
Stormer [7k\]: go cant really be solved
TheMage [5k\]: computers are likely to never be able to do that
tthaav [?\]: algorithms in general have not gotten much better during last 40 years... it is the power of machines, and go with complexity of o(19*19^n) is too much really
GSK: chess bots are gm strength
GSK: but still fun to play against other humans
Tsujigiri [4d\]: Well
GSK: no different than b4 bots
GSK: and 9p strength is not solved
Tsujigiri [4d\]: If the computers start to learn by themselves
Valkiry [?\]: right^^
GSK: they would have to be stonger than that by far to have solved the game
Tsujigiri [4d\]: then go wont be hard to solve
TheMage [5k\]: number of possible go positions is greater than the number of atoms in the universe ;P
Valkiry [?\]: if bot gives 3 hc to 9p that is solved :)
Stormer [7k\]: well not positions, but complete games
Snap [13k?\]: Thats a big If. Are there any ideas how to do that?
GSK: yes, but most of the games are not reachable with any ammount of skill
Area53 [11k\]: I'd say no to that.
TheMage [5k\]: the main idea is it cant be done, but who knows in the future
Snap [13k?\]: oh, that was an answer to Tsujigiri
GSK: mage, its called pruning
GSK: you rule out obviously bad possibilities
Tsujigiri [4d\]: but, what if Go is chaos
MacKniver [29k?\]: the real challenge on the short term is when we see a chimpansee beating a 10k player
TheMage [5k\]: i dont need computer lessons :P
Tsujigiri [4d\]: what if it isn't possible to be solved
TheMage [5k\]: im probably more proficient than anyone else here
GSK: im not saying it will be solved
tthaav [?\]: to me, pro moves look obviously bad - but I'm just so bad player ^^
GSK: that they will reach 9p strength
GSK: big differnece
MacKniver [29k?\]: me2
GSK: and go isnt infinite in possibilities
MacKniver [29k?\]: having a hard time with live-death situations :)
MacKniver [29k?\]: but I play for 2 weeks yet
GSK: superko rules that out
TheMage [5k\]: even with pruning
TheMage [5k\]: go is large as anything
GSK: no
Tsujigiri [4d\]: kyu = mastering the basics, dan = mastering aji / shape pro = games that take days
GSK: easy to find a more complicated game
TheMage [5k\]: im not looking for any
GSK: just use a 1kx1k board
GSK: or go in 4 diminsions
TheMage [5k\]: wow, go back to the math department
TheMage [5k\]: who cares about that
MacKniver [29k?\]: that would be stratego gsk
GSK: you just said nothing was more complicated
GSK: i was naming some
TheMage [5k\]: no i didnt
GSK: go is as large as anything
GSK: quote
TheMage [5k\]: yes, its a different meaning
vogelfrei [13k\]: play 38 38 here on kgs... after 20 minutes u suffer from eye cancer
MacKniver [29k?\]: lol
TheMage [5k\]: and wait
TheMage [5k\]: i said as large as anything
TheMage [5k\]: not complicated
TheMage [5k\]: quote me right jerk :P
GSK: yes, but thats not true either
GSK: and i quoted u right
TheMage [5k\]: have you ever palyed 1k by 1k go?
GSK: no, but i have 4d do
GSK: go*
GSK: much more complicated
TheMage [5k\]: so... what is this 4th dimension
GSK: on a 7x7x7x7
GSK: easy just use coordinates
TheMage [5k\]: pain
GSK: seven 3d boards
GSK: linked each place in 4 places
TheMage [5k\]: sounds like a big waste of time
GSK: not each sorry
GSK: took a long time ya
GSK: but was interesting
MacKniver [29k?\]: 3d boards shouldn't be any harder
GSK: depends how many liberties each has
GSK: if 4 not more difficult
MacKniver [29k?\]: 6
GSK: if more yes
GSK: 6>4
TheMage [5k\]: not necessarily true
MacKniver [29k?\]: having more doesn't means its more complicated
GSK: yes it does
GSK: trust me
TheMage [5k\]: 6 is not greater than 4 in mod 5
GSK: lol mage
GSK: was saying in liberties
Ariel74 [?\]: what the heck are you guys arguing about?
TheMage [5k\]: women mainly
GSK: weather bots will eventually play pro
TheMage [5k\]: weather bots?
GSK: course!
Ariel74 [?\]: used for weather forcasts
TheMage [5k\]: will they also predict the weather?
TheMage [5k\]: or control i
TheMage [5k\]: it
GSK: obviously not or they would be right more often!
MacKniver [29k?\]: guess so
TheMage [5k\]: bots will never be pro at weather prediction
GSK: until they DO control it =p
Ariel74 [?\]: is anyone pro at weather prediction?
GSK: feasible with nano bots
TheMage [5k\]: dude, dont start with me
GSK: har mage
TheMage [5k\]: im this close to snapping
TheMage [5k\]: :P
GSK: l8r off to hang out with gf some
MacKniver [29k?\]: ok
Atitos [24k\]: one question, escuse me. when b put in a11 w better a13 than l5?
egen [11k?\]: Разбора не будет?
]))
